There is 1 message totaling 1095 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Roundabout Lighting

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Date:    Sun, 5 Aug 2018 18:06:55 +0000

From:    Ken Sides <ksides@SAMSCHWARTZ.COM>

Subject: Roundabout Lighting

Here's an instance in which a municipality reluctantly agreed to sign a roundabout maintenance agreement for a state roundabout it didn't want.

http://www.meadvilletribune.com/news/vernon-supervisors-reluctantly-ok-maintenance-agreement-for-roundabout/article_3a32aa4e-974b-11e8-8776-c76024deb2a5.html

We know that public opposition to a roundabout can flip from 2/3 against beforehand to 2/3 in favor post-construction.  It would be interesting to see if local government opposition colors popular perception of a roundabout for a long time.  Because the maintenance payments will be ongoing, so, too, might be resentment of the roundabout regardless of how many severe injuries it may prevent.

To me, it seem like public perception of roundabouts over time would make great material for graduate students in the social sciences, especially now with so many case studies and so much information freely available.

-Ken

Ken Sides, PE, PTOE, CNU-a

From: Roundabout Research <ROUNDABOUTS@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> On Behalf Of Ken Sides

Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 1:46 PM

To: ROUNDABOUTS@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU

Subject: Roundabout Lighting

I agree that "Fat chance!" is about what my delayed funding suggestion amounts to.

My suggestion was to visit illuminated sites, take measurements, and decide for yourself what is an appropriate level of illumination for each context.  I think in 1-lane roundabouts with circulating speeds 11-13 MPH or so, you don't need a lot and it's not complicated.   If we make it complicated, we might end up with excess lighting and possibly even degrade the contextual ambience.

All those manuals are what other people think;  I prefer to get out in the field, make my own measurements and form my own opinions.  Maybe they are operating under all sorts of unstated assumptions and baggage they carried over from their highway design experience.  How many of them have walked around and hung around modern roundabouts after dark?  For example, has even one of the manual-writers stood by a modern roundabout to observe where drivers actually look?  [Raise your hand if you have.]

Traffic manuals tend to have a major tilt toward highway mentality, as has been lamented for years now by the planning profession, ITE, etc.  Modern roundabouts are a completely different thing, and still new, so I think we should do our own thinking.  Recommended reading: the foreword to the AASHJTO Green Book "bible."   It states the book is all about speed, but also takes the position that, although 1000 pages of tables and formulas follow, the reader should exercise their own engineering judgement.

-Ken

Ken Sides, PE, PTOE, CNU-a

From: Roundabout Research <ROUNDABOUTS@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU> On Behalf Of Ressel, Howard R (DOT)

Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 1:19 PM

To: ROUNDABOUTS@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU

Subject: Re: Roundabout Lighting

In my experience it would be nearly impossible to get the municipality to voluntarily take over the lighting after a few years.  Unless your State ha a policy or law requiring municipalities to pay for the lighting they are reluctant to do so.  Often lighting is not warranted so we add it as a courtesy and in urban areas its not an issue as there is continuous lighting anyhow. The municipalities are in favor of it and willing to take on the burden.  It becomes a bigger problem with an isolated roundabout in a rural area where there is no or little municipal lighting.

I work in a local Region and cannot speak for the New York State Department of Transportation or other agencies in NY but to my knowledge it is not clear if lighting is warranted at a roundabout in NY based on our lighting policies. Generally however if there are no warrants, and, if Town won't agree to maintain/energize for 25 years, we don't install lights.  Also, if they do agree and then stop maint./energizing, they pay "damages".   It is my understanding that in New York our Lighting Policy does state that if the municipality will not agree to pay for the mainatince an energy then we will not build the lights even if warranted.

Lighting analysis is much more complicated than what you suggested:

*         For 1-lane roundabout with about 12,000 ADT, I think one (1) foot-candle is about right.

There are many factors that goes into designing a lighting system especially at a roundabout. The location of pedestrian crossings, rural vs. urban, continuously light approaches etc. The levels are determined by examination and application of recommended light levels produced by several organizations include AASHTO, ANSI RP-8.  You can't really use a rule of thumb as suggested.

Howard R. Ressel

Project Design Engineer

[Dept of Transportation Logo-with gov and commish names-memo]

From: Roundabout Research [mailto:ROUNDABOUTS@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Ken Sides

Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2018 9:34 AM

To: ROUNDABOUTS@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU<mailto:ROUNDABOUTS@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU>

Subject: Roundabout Lighting

Some suggestions:

*         Find a roundabout similar to the ones at issue, turn off the street lighting for a night, and see what you think of it.

*         Measure the light level at a roundabout you think is adequately illuminated.  For 1-lane roundabout with about 12,000 ADT, I think one (1) foot-candle is about right.

*         Measure the light level at the roundabout(s) at issue.  Maybe they already have adequate lighting.

*         Install the larger Opti-Curb Markers atop the truck apron outside curb at the darkest roundabouts.  I use the small ones at all my roundabouts, lest some night the power be out.

*         The municipalities may feel differently in a year or two about the roundabouts.  Maybe the State pays for the lighting for two years, then quietly approaches the municipalities about shifting the lighting burden to them, especially if you can demonstrate a strong benefit to them, such as

o   a reduction in fatalities,

o   A reduction in severe injuries,

o   A reduction in the severity of injuries,

o   LOS improvements, especially off peak, and

o   dramatic reductions in queue length and duration during peak.

-Ken

From: Roundabout Research <ROUNDABOUTS@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU<mailto:ROUNDABOUTS@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU>> On Behalf Of PD, Roundabout

Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2018 5:06 PM

To: ROUNDABOUTS@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU<mailto:ROUNDABOUTS@LISTSERV.KSU.EDU>

Subject: Roundabout Lighting

DOTs (preferably Commonwealths),

We (Pennsylvania) are having an issue with getting municipalities to pay for energizing and maintaining the lighting for roundabouts.

Our current practice is that municipalities pay to energize and maintain highway lighting (Non-Interstate).

This is done via a Maintenance Agreement or Permit with the municipality.

The issue with roundabouts is that if a municipality doesn't want the roundabout, they refuse to sign the agreement even though energizing & maintenance is cheaper than for a signal.

So, we have a few situations where we are either going to have to pay for the energizing & maintenance or not provide lighting.

I know lighting is highly recommended for roundabouts, but there is no guidance (I am aware of) on when it may be acceptable, not to provide it.

So, I have a couple questions:

-          Do any States/Commonwealths pay for roundabout lighting & maintenance?

-          Are there any unlit roundabouts in the U.S. with ADTs over say 10,000? and how are they performing?

Thanks,

Jeff Bucher, P.E.

Project Development Engineer | Roundabout Coordinator

PA Department of Transportation | Bureau of Project Delivery

Highway Delivery Division | Highway Design and Technology Section

400 North Street, 7th Floor | Harrisburg, PA 17120

Phone: 717.783.4586 | Fax: 717.705.2379

www.state.pa.us<https://url2.mailanyone.net/v1/?m=1fkumb-000jZn-3V&i=57e1b682&c=z52bEAJGizbu29APNGHCsGcqYsifhJOhrWXSYqVLbvNyS7kEIqANj7ZqmDwynadeIOSSKmRazTTTTqkGm8bmgqmM5MgT7dKGz2xqhWAYoS9EHfPseqr6PAcm6FsiCuPjM3Sn9CQeptCZjDatJXUAlIwdw_ONLiGIHf0rRtW1PCjUxoyZg8jyUrOgcXI4O59iYQlJIK-H09ebKgMdQCgeKn9jrqnzhw0bFdG1IbwpqZM>

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End of ROUNDABOUTS Digest - 2 Aug 2018 to 5 Aug 2018 (#2018-230)

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